TOPIC: transom replacement

Flamingo...your post is what this forum is all about: knowledge and experience shared for the benefit of others. There is a lot to be learned from your post, not all of it technical. Thanks!

Some other info I believe will be helpful to new "Glassers". Polyester resin is not like Epoxy, in that it has no "Binders" in the resin. This means applying it to any substrate by itself will not be of much use. When it cures it will become hard and very brittle. (This is especially true if you add to much MEKP to the mix.) If the substrate flexes, (Boats flex a LOT) the resin coating will crack and thus allow water to penetrate to the wood substrate below. GelCoat is a polyester based product and all of us have seen the cracking and crazing that occurs with it. It DOES have some binders added to the mix but nothing like epoxy has. Polyester contains Styrene and this chemical aids in the breaking down of the fibers in Chopped Strand Mat (CSM). When this occurs it makes the Resin/Mat mix become one homogulous chemical structure that will be much stronger and tend NOT to break apart when placed under load or when flexed. Having said all this, you should always use CSM or some other "Binding Agent" (i.e. Cabosil, milled Fibers or Strands) to the resin. When using Epoxy this is NOT the case. It can be used in a stand alone scenario with no issues. If you want to use Poly Resin as a glue or Filleting material, you can add Cabosil, and or Chopped milled fibers to it and mix to a Mayonaise or Peanut Butter consistency and it makes a great glue or filleting material. It's been called "Peanut Butter" on various other forums among other terms. It's what I use to bed stringers, Fillet and to adhere the transom to the outer skin of the hull.

Hope you find this informative and helpful.

Here's a video on How to Make Peanut Butter.



Here's a Starting list of things you'll need...

This is for a 16 ft Runabout with 3-4 Stringers of approx 6-8” depth, 1 ½” transom thickness and a ¾” thick Deck.
It also assumes using ¾” plywood for all components i.e. Deck, Stringers and Transom.

These are Guess-Ti-Mates but should get you close.

PPE (Personal Protection Equipment)

Respirator (Full Face Preferred $100) if not then double filtered 1/2 face and Goggles with vents taped over.
Latex Gloves (1 Box)
Leather Gloves 1 Pair
Full cover Hooded Tyvek suit.
Talcum Powder (coat yourself TOTALLY with talcum powder prior to every grinding Session. USE A LOT) It seals the pores of your skin and REALLY helps keep off the ITCH!!!!

Demolition Equipment

Prybars, Hammers, chisels, Putty Knives
Flat tipped shovel to remove foam (if you have any)
Circular Saw
Sawzall
Dremel Tool
Router
Drill
Random Orbit Sander
Rasps, Files
4 1/2" Grinder with Backup Pad and 24 grit resin coated sanding discs
Masking Tape

Restoration Products

3-4 sheets 3/4" Arauco Ext. Grade Plywood
15 Gallons Polyester Laminating Resin ( NOT the stuff from Home Depot (it has wax in it and is 20% more expensive than buying in bulk)
4 Gallons Cabosil/Aerosil
1 lbs 1/4" chopped strand fibers
20 yds 1.5 oz CSM
15 yds 1708 Biaxial Cloth
dozen 1 qt plastic mixing buckets
1/2" x 5" Fiberglass ”Bubble Buster” roller
Short nap 6" nylon roller covers
2 dozen 3" Chip Brushes

Bellboy, as you can see, one thing is certain. There are lots of ways to lay up fiberglass and mostly MY WAY IS RIGHT!!! (lol).

The interesting part to me is that regardless of the method or materials, everyone's boats seem to come out OK if they pay attention to detail and workmanship.

I build (out of necessity) with an eye toward economy. I use mat and cloth because it requires less resin to wet it out. I use polyester resin because it is less than half the cost of epoxy. Admittedly it is not as strong as epoxy and 1708 biax, but I don't use my boats in the ocean. I have launched a couple of em off a few wakeboard boat wakes and I'm still above water.(BTW when most of the boats on this site were manufactured, biax didn't exist.)

From the look of the layup schedules I've seen here, these guys would not step foot in one of my rebuilds(although I've run 73 mph GPS in a boat I rebuilt from the balsa core up.) On the other hand, I will be looking for one of their boats to crawl under if we come under nuclear attack.

If you would like to bypass the mixing process for "peanut butter", Mertons Fiberglass makes a concoction he calls "Hull and Deck Putty", milled fiberglass and resin. Costs $45 a gallon ($15 a qt.) and avoids the mixing process, just pop open the can and go for it. His prices are hard to beat on fiberglass material and resin too.

Bernie.

Another good online source for Resin is www.uscomposites.com .

FYI $45.00 for a gallon or PB is about 20% higher than the typical cost of making your own. (not counting your labor for the 10 minutes it takes to make it).

Another benefit is you can mix to your desired consistency and not the MFG's. There are a LOT of time when you want/need PB to be at various thickness for it to work the way you want it to.

Flamingo, that is an awesome post demonstrating the volume of tools and materials needed when you dig into the deck, transom, and stringers on these boats.
I had no clue what I was going to need as far as the amount of materials needed until I bought some and blew through it in a few days. This is something people just have to find out for themselves.

Restoration Products

3-4 sheets 3/4" Arauco Ext. Grade Plywood
15 Gallons Polyester Laminating Resin ( NOT the stuff from Home Depot (it has wax in it and is 20% more expensive than buying in bulk)
4 Gallons Cabosil/Aerosil
1 lbs 1/4" chopped strand fibers
20 yds 1.5 oz CSM
15 yds 1708 Biaxial Cloth
dozen 1 qt plastic mixing buckets
1/2" x 5" Fiberglass ”Bubble Buster” roller
Short nap 6" nylon roller covers
2 dozen 3" Chip Brushes

And about 10 gallons of acetone! HAHA

This is a good thread - it's nice to see someone digging into a new project. My projects are stalled and covered in snow right now.

For what it's worth - I seldom use power tools to dismantle the wood and fiberglass structure of a vintage boat. I've taken many apart over the years, and the fewer power tools I use, the better. Using power tools to cut creates a lot of glass dust, and it can be risky. I normally use a heavy rubber mallet, a wonder bar (flat steel pry bar, a junky beat up wood chisel, and a carpenter's hammer. The rubber mallet and the wonder bar do the majority of the work. The trick is to find seam in the tabbing and jam the flat bar under it to start breaking the bond. You get the joint to pop, then follow along the line of the joint to continue the separation. With practice - you can follow a joint most of the length of the floor without stopping. Tabbing can often be completely torn away from the hull without damage to the hull structure. There are times when this is not the case, especially in boats where the builder used a lot of material. Most of the old boats were lightly, and often poorly assembled. Stringers can be removed by popping and tearing the tabbing on one side only, then push the stringer over to the other side to crack the tabbing at the base. The remaining tabbing can be torn out, or ground / sanded to prepare for new construction.

Just be careful if you're prying AGAINST the hull or exterior transom skin. Flat bars make really interesting shaped divots in old crazed fiberglass & gelcoat......

My add to the Resto Tool list:
Patience (to know you'll NOT always win at every stage during any portion of a vintage glass boat resto)
Vision (to see past what it looks like NOW)
Dedication (to DO A LITTLE BIT as often as possible)
Perseverance (to put all those little bits together into mini-projects, the mini-projects into completed larger tasks of the rebuild & EVENTUALLY re-splash the project)

I'd put them at the top of the VERY NECESSARY list........

Thanks for the information !!
I learn something new everyday here.

I do have a question, I put a tarp over the top of the back of my boat in my garage, I have no installation in my garage but I do have two propane heaters. It's 32 degrees outside but much warmer inside when I fire up my heaters. How long do I leave my heaters on if I want to glass the transom In ?

Thanks

The fumes of Polyester Resin are flammable. Albeit it would take a HIGH concentration of them and a totally closed and unventilated environment to cause an explosion/fire...It could happen. It's usually not advisable to work with Resin with Open flames in the general vicinity, this includes Gas Hot Water Heaters, Gas Furnaces any mechanicals with Gas Pilots. You can heat the garage with the propane heaters to get it up to temp and then shut them off, and maintain the temp on the substrate using Multiple 500 watt Halogen Lights or Heat Lamps. The key for glassing in cold temps is that the Substrate and the resin must have a temp of 60° or higher for the 1st 2 hours of curing(longer is better) and then it's advisable to keep the temps above freezing for the next 24 hours of the cure. Move the resin inside overnight to get it up to room temp. Then have a pie pan with HOT water in it to set your mix bucket in to "Fool" the resin into thinking it's warm in the garage. Mix the MEKP @ 2% instead of 1 - 1.5%. Use a heat gun to go over the area to be glassed just before you brush on the resin and it will think the same. If you do all this you can successfully glass in cold temps. It's a hassle but it can be done.

Building a "Blue Tarp Tent" over the boat will help isolate it and make it easier to heat a smaller area. It's amazing how much heat 3-4 Haolgens generate. Resin and Fiberglass hulls don't know it's 20° outside as long as you make them warm and toasty, they'll think it's SpringTime!!!!!

"Just be careful if you're prying AGAINST the hull or exterior transom skin. Flat bars make really interesting shaped divots in old crazed fiberglass & gelcoat"


Yes this is a very good point that I neglected to mention. The flat bar always kept parallel and flat against the outer skin, and used mainly as a tool the get under the tabbing. Using the flat bar as a pry bar is a big no-no when the back of the bar is against the outer wall of the boat. As long as the bar is just coaxed under the tabbing, or wood, it normally will not damage or stress the hull. It just takes a bit of practice to see what works best on each situation.


Bellboy 33 - as far as your garage is concerned - just be extremely careful to have no source of spark / fire ignition when using any solvent or resins. Protect yourself with a respirator approved for toxic solvents, chemicals, etc. You will need to adjust the amount of hardener for your temperature conditions, so experiment a little on some scraps first.

Yes thanks this helps out, lots if good reading here.
I picked up a sheet of marine plywood today. I think I made a mistake as I bought the wrong resin? It's poly should I take this back the guy said its fine but should of bought the more expensive I think.

Resin

Bellboy, polyester is what your boat is made of. When applied correctly to old rough ground fiberglass it is a very good material to rebuild boats with and probably used more than any other type of resin. Both vinylester and epoxy have somewhat better adherence and epoxy is a stronger final material. I read a lot about these when I did my Hydrostream rebuild and I recall that one source said that epoxy had approx. 80% of the bonding strength of the original bond when bonding old glass to new, polyester had 70% and vinylester was somewhere between the other two. The only reason that I could see to justify the higher cost of vinyl and epoxy was if using the boat in extreme conditions like open ocean or racing. I built my Hydrostream with vinylester because I got it from a local distributor for the same price as poly....I ran over 70 mph in that boat. I would have used poly without a second thought. I have rebuilt 3 others with poly and had zero problem with delamination, and the boat in my avatar has been jumped pretty hard and driven through a lot of rough water on my local lake. I believe that the main consideration is to be sure the old glass is ground clean and rough and make sure the glass attached to it is thouroughly saturated with resin.


That is my two cents worth...and it is worth EVERY PENNY YOU PAID! LOL!

Bernie

What resin (Brand) did you get? Not all are the same. If it's not "Laminating" resin it probably has wax in it and it can be problematic if you don't do "Wet-On-Wet" laminations. This means each successive layer of glass must be applied prior to the previous layer having set up. If it does setup/cure and harden you must sand the surface with 60 grit and wash down thoroughly with Acetone to get a proper bond with the next layer of glass and resin. ALL of the Big Box store, and Auto supply store resins sold in the gallon cans typically having the BONDO label, have wax in them. They don't say it on the can, but they do and they are 30% higher than buying in bulk from an online supplier.

Getting ready to Epoxy in 2 each pieces 3/4 marine plywood for the transom
My question is do I do anything with all the holes in the outside fiberglass skin as previous owners drilled lots if holes when they mounted a aluminum plate. Or do I let the epoxy run out the small holes when I clamp the new transom
in? And deal with all the holes after the fact.?
Also do I put any glass on the top of the transom when I epoxy both 3/4 "
Pieces in?
Thanks so much.

Thanks for all the information, I got epoxy from tap plastics side A 314 resin marine grade
With 143 hardener slow. What can I put over the deck after epoxy?
Thanks for the info.

What can I put over the deck after epoxy?

Are you talking about the floor ? (Sometimes also referred to as the "sole".) There are several options, here's a couple;
Gelcoat - maybe overkill, but really looks nice when done properly. Upside it seals the wood to prevent water intrusion, lasts a long time. Downside is it will be slick (especially when wet!) unless you use a non-skid agent in areas you walk on!
Paint - Basically the same as above, just doesn't last as long generally.
Nautolex - A vinyl floor covering available in several colors, textured finish, again really looks nice and lasts forever when properly installed and maintained;
www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/product.do?part=198637&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=product_ad&type=pla
Marine Carpet - Frowned on by many because of the tendency to hold moisture underneath, increasing the chances of rotting the floor. Some choose temporary installation methods to allow the removal for drying purposes when necessary. Probably the most "barefoot friendly" choice, plus colors and styles available are almost endless. (I rarely get into the water and back into the boat, and always keep my boat in the garage - so this is the choice I went with.) Not "original" on most older Glassics, but sometimes you just have to have the creature comforts. LOL

There's a few ideas, maybe some of the other members can elaborate or suggest some others......

Uhhhmmm, If you're using epoxy, Gelcoat is NOT going to work as a deck coating. It will not adhere to Epoxy worth a darn. You'll need to Paint or use the Nautolex or Carpet. I'd recommend Rustoleum Paint with the added Hardener and while it's still wet sprinkle some sand on the first coat. The roll over it with a second coat. Gives a nice non skid surface that's easy on the feet.

Or you could use Polyester Resin and a couple of layers of CSM instead and then you could use Gelcoat.

If you're using epoxy, Gelcoat is NOT going to work as a deck coating. It will not adhere to Epoxy....

Ooppss, forgot about that! Sorry Bellboy, yet another example of why I should let the folks who really know what they're talking about respond.

Ok great so I could use Nautolex over a epoxy deck floor? Thank you for your input.

Another option is suspended solid wood planking. I admit that it's a bit over the top but it just looks so damned nice! The decking in the photo below is 7/16" x 2-1/2" white oak, spaced about 1/32" apart to allow for ambient moisture swelling and pass through of rain water. I secure the planks with stainless screws, plugged and sanded fair. On a boat with a solid floor, I have used 1/4" "stringers" placed fore to aft which raise the planking so that water can run beneath to the transom drain/bilge pump. Of course, mahogany could be used just as well.

I once re-decked a vintage Chris Craft 24' cruiser this way using mahogany and added a 5x7 oriental rug with PVC "rattan" deck chairs. The combination got rave reviews.

Now there's a Man after my Heart!!!! I'm gunna build a custom boat when I retire. Gunna take an old 16 foot glass V-Hull and strip everything off her and then put a wood sole in her and a wood deck on her so she'll look like a Chris Craft from the 40's but she'll have a glass hull. I'm gunna faux paint the hull to make it look like wood. Well, that's the plan so we'll see if the Old Bones and the Retirement funds will allow this all to happen!!!!

Wow now that's a nice floor. Sure looks great

Flamingo:

Here's another boat I fitted with a wooden floor: my old 1980 21' Chris Craft Scorpion. Sorry for the poor photo quality but it pre-dates digital cameras so the "snap shot" was scanned to my computer.



The decking is all mahogany, about 1/2" x 2-1/2" strips set on 1/4" mahogany strips running fore and aft to allow rainwater to run beneath to the transom drain. All was screwed right into the original fiber-glassed plywood floor with 1-1/2" stainless screws which were sunk into holes cut with a 3/8" Forstner bit and then plugged, sanded fair. In this particular case, I oiled the decking: 50/50 mix of boiled linseed oil and turpentine. I applied several coats...maybe 6 or 7...with 0000 steel wool. It looked great and when dry, had a deep low-lustre sheen.

The folding tables were made of Brazilian cherry, also oiled. They were supported with inverted chrome 1" flag holders which held removable 1" billet aluminum rods with white rubber "feet" on the ends. I even made a mahogany rack to hold the rods when the tables were down. As shown, the tables were great for snacks and afternoon libations.

All other gratuitous mahogany trim was varnished with eight coats of Captain's varnish, sanded between coats.

The Captain's chair was a Pompanette Ebay find. The rest were double framed aluminum deck chairs. When the tables were folded down, the chair next to the Captain's was placed between the other two in the rear...three across. Moveable deck chairs gave me all kinds of options: storage, large coolers...even a dance floor with the option of some serious terpsichore to Aretha Franklin's ballad, "Until You Come Back To Me." After docking, all three chairs could be lifted onto the dock for relaxing in the shade with friends...and imported beer/wine. I like options.

We once took this boat to a local boat show...new boats from dealers, free sodas, hot dogs, etc. We tied up with all the other visiting boaters. My boat drew a constant crowd and when the "powers to be" finally tracked down the owner, I WAS ASKED TO MOVE THE BOAT! Eventually, my next door neighbor begged me to sell the boat to him...in February, for my price, which wasn't cheap. I let him have it.

Oh MY MY MY!!!!

My HEART MY HEART!!!! HOW BEEEEEEE - U - TEEEEEEEEE - FULLLLLL is THAT!!!!!!!!!! I LOVE your construction techniques and the care given. I use a 30/40/30 blend a lot. 30% BLO 40% Mineral Spirits and 30% Marine Varnish. Let it Soak in Really well then finish off with 3-4 coats of full strength Varnish. I usually use Epiphanes on any of my wood restoration stuff. When/If I ever get to retire, I want to find and restore a boat like my first one... a 1959 Crosby. Glass Hull Wood Top. Not many of em around any more. If I can't find one, I'll find a V- Hull tear off the Glass top and build a wood one!!! I'm kinda handy that way!!!!

Thanks for Sharing!!! I REALLY enjoyed this Pic!!!!!

Same Boat...

hello all I got my transom and stingers glassed in with epoxy wow that was allot of work.
Now i need to put a deck in the problem im having is new deck width is 4' 5" so how do i put seems togather?

Thank you.

also i really messed up as after i put my transom in i started looking at motors and its very hard to find a ss over 35 hp i quess I can use a Jack Plate

Thanks for any advise

Here's How I do My Deck Seams!! 6" strip of 1/2" ext. Grade plywood glued and screwed to the underside of one piece and then use thickened resin between the edges and then CSM over the seam.

ok thanks for the info.

Wow a few years has gone by i looked back on these notes I've came along way!! Got my new transome, stringers, expanding foam, floor, bench seats, in and started priming, so much work but Im starting to see vary hard work pay off, I still have a long wY to go but getting closer each month. Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for helping me get this far. I will post some pics soon.
Bellboy.

Oh Boy! nice thread revival.
Flamingo, did you ever start you remod of a glass hull?
Here's what was done to my 17' Shell Lake Sunliner. The upper deck was completely trashed, caved in, split, ripped but the hardware was excellent. Removed the entire top and gutted the interior. Rebuilt in '30's/40's style all hard Honduran mahogany. It can be done. Pictures were taken last year. Forget the shoes in storage, I like to go barefoot on the water

63 Sabre wrote:

Oh Boy! nice thread revival.
Flamingo, did you ever start you remod of a glass hull?
Here's what was done to my 17' Shell Lake Sunliner. The upper deck was completely trashed, caved in, split, ripped but the hardware was excellent. Removed the entire top and gutted the interior. Rebuilt in '30's/40's style all hard Honduran mahogany. It can be done. Pictures were taken last year. Forget the shoes in storage, I like to go barefoot on the water

Not Yet!!! But...I retire next year and it's on my Bucket List!!! I can only HOPE that mine turns out 1/2 as NICE as YOURS!!!!!

63sabre,

That's just DOWNRIGHT PURTY. = I award you both ears & the tail.

CONGRADS, satx