TOPIC: Original Flying Scott... should I even try?

We are working on getting our 1960 Dorsett in the water. One of the reasons I bought this boat is because it was in all original (unmodified) condition with the original Flying Scott 60. It was running two years ago but the seller told me he had starter issues. I pulled the plugs and cranked the motor over just to make sure the motor wasn't frozen and figured we sort out the starter issues.

As expected, I've been running in circles for two months trying to get the starter to function. It was no surprise when my local boat guy said the starter was shot and said his starter guy couldn't get any parts for it. I've taken the starter to a specialty starter mfg. (hotrods, motorcycles, VW's etc) and they have done a rebuild (armature/magnets etc.) We've done everything short of completely replacing the starter motor by putting a modern motor into the old housing. My next option is to send the starter out to have a gear CnC'd to mate the new motor to the original housing (who knows how long this will take and what it will cost. One-off parts from a machine shop $$$.) But I'm not going to throw away this motor because I can't get the starter to work.

So here's my dilemma: should I just go shopping for small 20-30 hp motor for the boat? Since it will be used primarily in salt in a So Cal harbor with a 5 MPH speed limit maybe I need a "service" motor. The Scott is a fresh water motor and way over powered for our harbor (I'm also concerned about fouled plugs etc.) I don't want to destroy the motor by using it. I'd rather restore the motor and keep it in my garage as artwork and ruin a smaller motor.

I'm open to advice... How would you do it?

Hummm... I think I'll go here next.

What is "the issue"? Won't spin? Won't engage?

Won't spin "up". I'm told it turns the motor about 1/4 of a turn and can't turn any more. (Motor turns by hand and I turned the motor using the starter w/o the spark plugs installed when I bought it.)

Check to see if the gear teeth are bottoming out in the flywheel ring gear. If there is too much tension there, it will turn very hard. A few thin shims to adjust the spacing might help.

Just a thought. I've never worked on a Scott, but I've had this problem with other machines.

If the 60 HP Flying scott takes the same starter as the 40 HP Royal scott, mine is a AC Delco and costs around $80

That looks to be a very common field case from AC Delco. Why cant they just get another field case and put your armature and drive in it?

Usually when it just turns a little its because one of the magnets on the field case is cracked.

Does it bench test okay? If it dose than something is catching in the engine.

My starter rebuild guy can't get parts for my 35 hp Golden Jubilee. I told him just today I managed to get a totally new starter for $66.30 on ebay. He could not believe it.

I have ownd many scotts, The early ones have issues with starters. allways! lol. as time went on the improvements allways included a bigger starter. I think 3 different all together. in 64 it was much bigger and was a good starter. A 75.2 hp power head will bolt right on your existing tower.

Thanks for the help everyone!

Littlefin: Does it bench test okay? Yes that's whats making me a little nuts. I've got the motor guy and the starter guy pointing at each other. It shouldn't be this hard.

Ponyboy: What starter did you end up using? Any help with P/N would be great.

Also I got a note today from Don Webb "Scottguy" he thinks he has one for me.

I will get this sorted out.... so any thoughts about running a smaller motor in the harbor salt? Or should I just go for it?

There is a later model 75 hp starter on ebay. Search for "McCulloch outboard"

Oh The price we pay for what we want sometimes. And no it should not be this hard.

Good, it benches out ok.

Now try it on the motor with out spark plugs in it. If it turns over then its not a mechanical hitting problem. It would be a firing against it's self problem. Like crossed spark plug wires or 180 degrees out on timing.

Also check all wire and cable connections for any corrosion. This could cause it to read full battery power until it is put under a load. Then it drops to nothing due to resistance from corrosion. (I hate when that happens)

Keep going we can get you through this.

Its only a machine - but man can they be a pain in the (Lower Part of the Human Torso).

It would be a firing against it's self problem. Like crossed spark plug wires or 180 degrees out on timing.

That's interesting! I will look at that too.

Disconnect the plug leads and ground them out with test leads or screwdrivers. They must remain grounded when you try to crank the engine, or the coils can be ruined by flash-over of the winding insulation. Leave the plugs in the engine. The starter should be capeable of cranking the snot out of the engine. If not, there is a malfunction. A competent starter technician should be able to tell you the exact condition of the starter in a matter of moments.

If the starter lacks torque or speed - check these areas:

Worn bushings
Worn brushes
Field coil shorted (check the Ohms of EACH coil)
Cracked housing
Starter drawing too much/too little current.
Sections of Windings in the armature shorted together

We have a brilliant starter guy here in Redding, if it is the starter - he can probably repair it. Coils and armatures can be rewound - it's done all the time.

PS - try bypassing the starter relay to eliminate that as a problem too. The contacts inside can burn up but still pass limited current to the starter motor.

how about a pic of this starter-engine. and could you mesure the lenght of the black case. I have some nos parts Im not ever going to use for the earlyer motors.
Oh and by the way, these engines are VERY easy on fuel!
and what Bruce said about the cables is oh so true when it comes to these scott motors,the old ford style starter relay can cause you to loose alot of voltage to the starter, and since its under powered it can cause even more problems. I added a ground strap at the starter bolt to the bolt holding the relay to the pan to help one that would Somtimes not crank more than 3-4 revolutions. also make sure your ign timming isnt to far advanced.

Ponyboy: Thank you! I will take a look at these suggestions. We will look at starter relay and adding the ground strap. Hopefully will have more/better news later this week.

As an update I sprang for the $200 eBay starter. Dropped it off and went out of town called the boat yard a week later and they said "yeah that one is junk too, spun a couple of times and smoke came out of the starter." Hummm... everytime I spoke with them over a 10 week period they wanted to sell me a new motor.

I love this Scott and I've decided to make it my winter project. I picked up the boat last weekend. To make myself feel better this weekend I re-installed the newly upholstered seats and carpet. It has a new cover and next I'm going to pull the motor and go through it.

Everyone here has been a great resource. I appreciate the help.

And idea if the motor itself is similar enough to the one from the later McCulloch 45 to steal parts from? I've got one here:

Just maybe going off in the wrong direction here, but, does the motor turn or spin by hand with the plugs out? Can you turn it 5 or 6 complete turns easyly? Also can it turn with the plugs in? I can't see why you are having such a hard time with the starters smoking out like you are. Did you try the starter with the plugs out at all. Just kinda wondering, good luck. Skip.

Yes. I did spin the motor with the plugs out when I bought it. So I believe the motor is OK.

My current plan after the starter comes back (the ebay seller guaranteed it for a year, so they are going to go over it again and send it back to me). I will replace the solenoid, battery cables, battery, and add a ground strap to the starter. Then I will verify the plug wiring and check the advance. Then I'll spin the motor w/o plugs. If everything looks good then I'll put the plugs and and see what happens.

Once I have some results I'll report back with the "facts" as I'm not sure what the boat yard actually did or didn't do.

Chinewalker wrote:

And idea if the motor itself is similar enough to the one from the later McCulloch 45 to steal parts from? I've got one here:

It may be the same housing but the mounting bracket is different. But thanks for looking for me.

here you can see the different starters they used on the 3 cyl from the left is the 60hp starter then the 2 ,75s

the issue is that the ports for the fuel pump tubes are in the way. they will however bolt up.

great thanks. I'm waiting for our desert heat to subside and I will be digging into this. Thanks! --S.

Hey. I found I have 2 of these short 60hp starters and 1 NOS armature. I dont have any way to test them other than to ck with a battery, they both spin quickly, If your interested send me an email. or PM

Hey I got your email, it was lost in my spam folder, I sent ya one back.

Not sure if you have had any luck with your issue yet but I had a totally different motor with the exact symptoms you describe. It turned out the carb had allowed a gas and oil mixture to leak into the crankcase with enough volume to hydro-lock the motor during cranking. It would smoke the starter with the plugs installed but cranked at full speed with them removed. After the crankcase was drained it worked perfectly. Mine had been sitting for quite some time with the gas lines attached. Just a thought.

PonyBoy: Thanks for the email. Just waiting to get back my starter from the shop. I'll email you if I need parts. Thanks!

Wrangler: Great tip, and it makes perfect sense I will add it to the check list when I start my troubleshooting.

All: You are all awesome, I really appreciate the insight.

Quick recap... I dropped off the boat to local outboard shop last spring and they had it all last summer, saying the starter(s) were bad. When I picked up the boat they had it disassembled. (I even had to go back and get my starters). My battery cables were thrown away etc.

I have a new starter, new starter solenoid and new battery cables and I am going to progress with your suggestions to trouble shoot this.

- Plug wire order
- Add a ground strap at the starter bolt to the bolt holding the relay to the pan
- Make sure the ign timing isn't to far advanced.
- verify no hydro-lock the motor during cranking.

Do any of you have photos of the starter side of the 60-61 red-head assembled? Here's what I have right now:

Here's a photo of my 58-59 donor motor. But the setup is all different because of the 3 coils.

Located this in the service manual...

do you have the big box with the voltage regulator?

Sure do, its behind the back seat mounted to the transom.

I hooked everything up today. New starter, new battery, new starter solenoid, new battery cables. I have 12V at the starter and it spins great with the plugs out. Put in the plugs and It turns about a 1/2 a turn and stops. I checked the plug wire order and everything is in place the points look great.

When the plugs are in and you turn the key the voltage drops to 9.5v when the starter loads up. I've got my buddy coming over tomorrow and we are going to step through the systems.

Sorry if I've missed this, but have you tested or replaced the battery? It sounds like you have a bad cell.

The beast roared to life. OK more like a Breapp, Brearpp, Berapp... but it was spinning. The new battery required a full charge and I kept it on a charger over night but it turned over the motor. Then we dug through the fuel system and got it to fire. Once, my el-cheapo starter relay stuck and the starter just kept turning and turning and I had to disconnect the battery. We put the old made-in-the-usa starter relay back in and it was just fine. So much for the "insolvable" starter issue.

On to fuel, I decided to pull all three carbs and found one to have a messed up metering rod spring and pin. I pulled a carb off my donor motor but it is a different so I couldn't steal the parts. Here's what I need anybody know where I can get one? (It's a pretty simple part so I will make one if needed.)

The motor has an aftermarket fuel pump on it so I pulled then one from the donor motor and I'm going to go through it and might put that one on. Looking forward to burning some fuel soon!

I am working on getting a '59 Flying Scott 60hp up and running and this thread and your blog have been very helpful! keep it up, the boat looks great!!

Even with your list of interchange part numbers from your blog, I still have not been able to locate a starter. I am posting a WTB on aomci now.

Dan Hillsberry,

WELCOME ABOARD.

yours, satx

Dan... Welcome! I don't have an extra starter (that works) but I believe Ponyboy does. PM him, he's a great guy.

I do have a '59 parts motor (that I took the starter and fuel pump off). I'm holding on to it in case I need any lower parts. If you need anything else let me know.

I can fix starters, so if I can find one I may be interested in your non working one. I am working with The Scott Guy on getting a starter but it may not include the nose piece. do you have that?

I will pm Ponyboy

Thanks!