TOPIC: Herter's Mark III question, what are these?

Hey guys, still working on my Herter's, made some fairly impressive progress (to me, at least)
However, I'm puzzled over these pieces, why they were constructed like this, and why it has a sizable gap when they're installed on the boat.

The pieces are in the front of the first picture, then in the second the arrows point towards where they mount. When they are mounted, there is roughly a 3/16" gap between the backside of the stern and the inside face of the aluminum piece. Is something missing? Are these correct for the boat? If nothing is missing and they're correct what seals the hole?

i.imgur.com/XNbpmQ4.jpg

i.imgur.com/ydt2UeK.jpg

You can see a little bit of the gap in this picture
i.imgur.com/meoXBvZ.jpg

I don’t know much about those boats, so this is a wild guess ?
Look up at your corner braces at the top. Is there a gap there also ? If not, look inside to see if there another set of holes where those braces could have been mover forward ?
Also look at the top cover strip at the top of the motor well on the transom. Does that strip overhang aft ? If not ? does the edge look like it has been trimmed or ground ?
What I am suggesting is: There may have been another skin, possibly wood that was removed at some point, and never replaced ?
If the gap is the same on both pieces ? That surly suggest something was in between ? If you can’t figure it out ? Make something that fills the gap.
That is my suggestion.

i65.photobucket.com/albums/h208/84400/1958%20Herters%20Runabout/Boat002.jpg did a quick Google search by his link show a similar boat not sure if it helps can't any gap on this one or anything that you might be missing ??

Chuck in Cincinnati wrote:

I don’t know much about those boats, so this is a wild guess ?
Look up at your corner braces at the top. Is there a gap there also ? If not, look inside to see if there another set of holes where those braces could have been mover forward ?
Also look at the top cover strip at the top of the motor well on the transom. Does that strip overhang aft ? If not ? does the edge look like it has been trimmed or ground ?
What I am suggesting is: There may have been another skin, possibly wood that was removed at some point, and never replaced ?
If the gap is the same on both pieces ? That surly suggest something was in between ? If you can’t figure it out ? Make something that fills the gap.
That is my suggestion.

There's no gap anywhere else, one set of holes in the bottom, the strip overhangs just enough to cover the fiberglass and looks factory.
As far as I can tell, and from what few boats I've seen, it looks like the gap is... normal?
www.flickr.com/photos/baw541/10535679594/in/album-72157632704182672/
www.fiberglassics.com/fiberglassics-forums/home/main-forum/herters-followed-me-home

I've seen one picture with a retaining strap going across the pieces, I think that's what it honestly is. Doesn't help me know what to place between the piece and the hull, though.

bryxr4ti wrote:

i65.photobucket.com/albums/h208/84400/1958%20Herters%20Runabout/Boat002.jpg did a quick Google search by his link show a similar boat not sure if it helps can't any gap on this one or anything that you might be missing ??

Other than that one being a Mark V, it looks pretty similar, but I can't see anything filling in the gap. I can't even tell if there's a gap or not because it's all the same color, actually.

Mr. Asa,

Almost every Herters you look at will have some type of fit problems with what I call "transom skids". This particular casting (left and right are the same) was used on most fiberglass boats Herters built. I suspect the poor fit up comes from wear and tear over the years on both the hull molds and the transom skid molds, along with questionable quality control.
The method I use to try to correct it is to attach the skid with the single rear screw first. That should leave the gap on the bottom. You may have to carefully remove some aluminum from the inner radius of the junction of the horizontal and vertical surfaces to improve the fit, or you may have to elongate the top hole in the fiberglass one way or the other. When you have the vertical fit as good as you can, modify the bottom holes in the fiberglass to match the holes in the skid. Carefully pull the bottom up with screws. If the gap is large, you can try to modify the bend. Hold the skid in a vice between two hardwood blocks and strike it with a hammer.
Aluminum tends to crack if bent slowly with even pressure, but will bend better with quickly applied force. I'm sure you can see the risk involved with type of modification so only use it if you have a plan B in case of a disaster. You might want to resort to aluminum shims as they will not be easy to see on the bottom. Now about sealing: Herters used rubber washers between the fiberglass and trim to seal all the holes in the hull. They had them available for purchase in the catalog if you had to do repairs. I believe the rubber helped cause the gaps and they did not seal too well as the boats aged. Many Herters have patches of fiberglass or sealant over the hull hardware to stop leakage. I use 4200 for sealing the hull hardware.
The first pic shows the sealing washers off of my 1957 side trim. The second is the patched floor.

Don

Don, based off of the gap seen in that last picture and your experience, do you think I could pull that in? If so I'll do what I can to repair the surfaces from the heavy oxidation then do so.

I've seen the rubber washers, I didn't think they were put in there by Herter's It definitely looks like they don't result in a good fit.

I do have access to a machine shop, and a friend's forge and casting supplies. I was thinking I would have to either recast them or weld enough to them to reshape the mating surfaces

I think I do see some gap on the inside of the left skid. What happened when you removed the bottom fasteners? With them out can you shift the skid to fit better? If so, then you need to shift the bottom holes.
If you can make the vertical leg fit correctly without fasteners you should be able to modify the holes so the single screw in the vertical will position it correctly. The bottom may not fit as well, but it can't be seen. If the vertical leg surface is not flat, or the transom is not flat the single screw will not prevent a gap.
If, as I mentioned previously, you can force the gap to the bottom leg then you have two screws and they can pull out a gap. I wouldn't worry about pulling a 1/6" to 3/32" gap closed.
I've attached a couple of photos of my skids before fitting them. I am in the process of installing them right now.
The first one was out of focus, but I think you can see my problem. The angle between the the two legs is too acute. I think one of three things may have caused it. The first is it was cast that way. The second is I had to do extensive rework to the transom. Is was wavy and had more holes than a sieve. I never checked the angle as I was doing the repairs. The last is that bead blasting can stress relieve castings and I did bead blast them.
Recasting is an option. I recast my glove box, windshield posts, and cigarette holders for this boat from originals that a friend had and they turned out well.
Welding is also an option, but I have had mixed results welding Herters castings. I have a basic Lincoln 175 square wave TIG and I was able to weld the crack and some holes in the transom. I was also able to weld a broken floor support.
When I tried to repair a piece that was broken out of a tail casting it was a mess. There were way to many impurities in the casting and I couldn't even start a decent bead. I finally had to have my son weld it and some holes in the keel with his 250 Miller that has adjustable everything. He got it, but it wasn't easy. Before you do too much you might want to do a test weld on the inside of the casting.
If I have to adjust the angle on mine I may saw through most of it, adjust the angle, and then lock it in a fixture and weld the inside. If it's not pretty, that's OK.
I also have a problem with the vertical face not being flat so I may try doing some bending on that.
As a last resort, I have a tube of black 3M 4200 to seal all my hardware to the black hull and I can fill small gaps with that.
Hope this helps.

Don

Don
The bottom of the vertical portion is pretty much flush with the right angle curve where the hull meets the stern/transom. I might be able to put everything in loosely and then tighten it all up, but I think I wouldn't be able to drill completely new holes ahead of the old ones. I might be able to lengthen them or wallow them out so they are more like a slit.

I haven't actually measured the gap, but I think it's a bit more than 1/8th of an inch.

I definitely have noticed weird things with other parts that I've tried to weld. It's like they used some alloy of aluminum that was heavy on the copper.

Are you using the original holes that the fittings were taken out of?
When I disassembled my Herters I clearly marked every trim piece, what side and location. Fitting may look identical but won't fit since over the years they seem to take a "set".
For that little gap you are concerned with I would not bother. When I installed mine I backed them with 5200 to seal the holes and there were no gaps.

Sabre

Currently I'm not using any holes as they're off the boat so I can try and repair them, but yes I'm working to try and make sure that the entire thing uses as many original holes and parts as possible.