TOPIC: '59 Fat Fifty Starting problems

Ok guys, need some help from my friends here. The start problems are back again. Once she started and been running a while she doesn't like to restart. Well to be more specific, the solenoid doesn't like to restart. If it's only been say half an hour or so, she'll restart but if it's been running longer than that, it's dead. You turn the key and nothing at all. Battery still has plenty of charge since I can pull the positive battery cable and touch it to the starter side of the solenoid and she starts right up. I've tried two brand new solenoids and get the same thing. Do you think there's a wiring issue up to the ignition switch? If it sits for an hour or longer it will start again. I know I can go out there tomorrow, reconnect the battery positive cable back to the right side of the solenoid, turn the key and she'll start right up.

Any ideas?

Bob

Sorry to hear about all your troubles on the first outing of the season Bob. I guess it's possible the ignition switch is malfunctioning after it runs a while, (gets "hot" ?). I hate intermittent electrical problems, you have to recreate the problem to trouble shoot.

A test light put to the solenoid on the switch terminal will verify that you haven't gotten a "bad batch" of solenoids. (It happens!) Getting to the ign. switch terminals might be tricky, but the test light to the start terminal during the malfunction will confirm or rule out that idea. (I hate to see you buy an ign. switch if you don't need one.)

Just my "shade tree mechanic" thoughts, maybe one of the real ones will have a better idea. Good luck with it, let us know what you find out okay?

Neutral safety switch
Worn contacts in ignition switch
Intermittent connection in wiring between point A & B

Is there one of those ballast resistors in the ignition system? It raises and lowers voltage to the ignition as per the heat that is present. I had that explained to me here last year. Just a thought

Thanks guys, well tried to look at the shifting problem and ignition but the mosquito's just about carried me away. I looked at the neutral switch and seems to be right. Didn't get to check it with the volt meter but it did work last time when this problem showed itself. I'll have to try looking at the ignition switch again tomorrow if the bugs aren't too bad. Looks like the lower unit is going to be the priority though, can't run without a good one of those!

Bob

Well lower units fine, just the lower shifting rod, popped out of the coupler. Messed around with the starting problem some but couldn't repeat it in the short time I let the engine run. Tried restarting it about 12 times and it restarted every time! Guess I just didn't let it run long enough. Wiring looked fin and so did the ignition switch connections. Everything nice and tight. Didn't see any ballast resistor anywhere Might be hidden, have to look at the wiring diagram again to see if it shows one.

Bob

Glad to hear it's coming together for you Bob, you deserve some "cruise time" trouble free!

Thanks Mark, I may have to trouble shoot it next time out I think. Just racking my brain as to what could be heating up and separating. Maybe it is the solenoid, but if so then why is it heating up, shouldn't be. Don't see any thing that could be shorting anywhere. Well I guess I'll have to wait and see.

Bob

you never said if you can hear the solinoid clacking when you turn the key. Those solinoids either work or the don't. Next time run a hot wire to the start side of the solinoid and see if it clicks and the starter turns over if it does then its between the key and the solinoid.
Mike aka the pirate

Mike,
I turn the key and nothing happens, nothing, no clicking nothing. Wait a few hours and back to normal, works fine.

Bob

Well got out on the water with the family. Fatty did fine just a little too much weight so she wouldn't really plain off unless under full throttle! Oh well, was fun anyway, even if I fell in putting her back on the trailer, so much for that cell phone I guess! LOL Wanted a new one anyway.

Well the starting problem reared its ugly head as usual and did what Mike said and sure enough, jumped from the hot side to the start side and nothing! So I guess I'm buying yet ANOTHER solenoid! Still not sure what is making them stick after hours of running the motor? Got back home smacked it hard with the screw driver handle and started right up in the barrel!

Bob

Bob,

I'm guessing that the starter relay is getting air moisture in it and corroding. Marine relays are supposed to be sealed to prevent this from happening. Is it a marine relay or automotive? Sometimes it is very difficult to tell between the two kinds.

Bob,

Take apart the old sticking solenoid and see if the contacts are burning. This is usually caused by low voltage (Not a full 12 Volts) due to a connection or contact. Or a low battery charge.

Bruce is right the marine solenoids are sealed.

Just a thought! I worked for a electrical rebuild shop for several years and saw a lot of this stuff. Reading this forum brings back a lot of memories, both good and bad.

Thanks guys. Well the voltage should be good, I'm using a 12 volt 1.5 amp charger from Harbor freight that keeps it charged all the time. I thought it was a marine type, canister sealed, from what I can tell, from marine engine.com. Can;t remember if I got the Sierra or Mallory. Ill try the Evinrude one this time, only a buck more expensive.

Brand new positive and negative cables to the junction box by the way. Well, new when I restored her couple of years ago. The cable to the starter from the junction box is still original though.

I have to get a new charger though, day was great up until the daughter wanted to dangle her legs in the water. Throttled back to idle, put her in neutral, thought we were good. Nope, putting her in neutral caused the shift connector to come loose AGAIN. Stuck in reverse and had to back her back to the dock a half mile away in 1' to 1.5' waves! Got there eventually but not without the daughter and her boyfriend bailing water all the way back!!!!!!!!! First time I've had to pull the drain plug in the three years since I restored her! LOL I'm sure my son was watching from above and laughing his butt off, always did have a twisted sense of humor! LOL

Bob

Bob,

It is a common mistake to not have the lower shift rod fully inserted into the shift coupler. The shift rod has a groove in it about 3/8" below the tip. With the lower bolt completely removed, re insert the lower shift rod into the coupler. The rod must be shoved up into the connector enough that the groove in the rod aligns with the lower bolt hole - the top part of the shaft MUST be above the lower bolt hole. When the bolt is inserted - the threaded area passes by the grove to the sides, but above & below the bolt the shaft is prevented from moving because the bolt won't allow it to move. If it is put together properly, it is impossible for the shaft to get by the bolt. Check to see that this is correctly done on yours. If the problem continues, either the coupler or the lower shift rod is damaged.

Thanks Bruce. Yeah pretty much shoved that baby all the way up into the coupler last time, from what I could yell anyway. Looks like the coupler may be bad. I do remember the bolt not tightening well when I first had the lower unit off when I started the restoration. I went ahead and ordered a new coupler with bolts and lock washers. Also ordered a new solenoid with it.

Bob

Well the new solenoid came in, along with the new shift rod connector. Hope to get it back on before I leave for Pensacola this weekend. Boat's staying here though. I was wondering if the battery could be causing the solenoid to act up? It's a deep cell and not sure if that should affect it or not. Thought that would be a good one to use since the fatty doesn't have any charging system. Any thoughts?

Bob

Bob, just an off the cuff input here but when the starting issue happens have you tried disconnecting the temperature sensor, the one that sets off the hot light? Don't know if this is wired into the start/run circuit but it might be something to check since it will restart when it cools down.
Cal

Cal,
Interesting thought. I don't have a hot light on this boat. I don't believe the '59 Fat Fifty's had the, The cylinder heads don't have a temperature sensor in them like the later 75/80hp did. I'm not sure there's any temperature sensor on it at all. I'll have to give it a good look again when I get back home, but I don't believe so.

Bob

Do you have a fuse in the starter circuit ?
I've heard of them getting hot , disconnecting / cooling off
Then working fine
It's a long shot , but worth checking out .

Not sure at this point, going to have to go through with a fine tooth comb and see what I come up with. MAy just run new wiring since I'm still running the original. Technically it's fine and still bends without breaking the insulation but it is vintage 1960 so......

Bob

Well I took apart one of the sticky solenoids and here is what I found.



So any ideas?

Bob

Bob, it's a tuffie.

Am I right in assuming this is the solonoid that is in the starter box? Your connections look somewhat dirty and rusty other than that she looks pretty clean inside. Have you tried starting the motor by jumping directly to the starter motor from the battery when the problem begins, (hate to use the word "start")using jumper cables? That would narrow the issue to the start circuit only. Is there a diode in there somewhere? If the solonoid is clicking then it's working and the problem is somewhere else.
You might try going to Napa or some other auto store and picking up another solonoid, Ford or something like that. They are for all practicality just a big magnet relay to save your key switch. I'll try googling around for some answers although I'm sure you already did that.
Cal

Bob I found a discussion that may be of interest. Something to try when the engine is warm.
Cal
www.ehow.com/how_7887430_test-sticking-starter-solenoid.html

Bob,

Because the starter motor on these is gear reduction, they generally draw fewer amps than direct-drive types. Usually, the The faster an electric motor spins, the fewer amps it pulls.

I'm suspecting that there is a fault in the starter, which is causing it to draw excessive current. This is why the relay contacts are getting wiped out.

If your FIFTY has the original starter, it's a little 4000 series Autolite. Compare the size of the one on there with one of the other V4 engines you picked up. If the one on the FIFTY is shorter, get it off of there & put one of the taller ones on. The short ones were only 2 pole, and originally intended for the Big Twin 35. Engineers put the gear reduction on it to make it vork on the big engine, but it was still prone to failure.

The starter can still work but draw too much current. You could take it somewhere to have it tested, but I wouldn't bother. The short motors just have to work too hard to crank the engine.

If one of the other motors you have has a Prestolite (aluminum end cap that holds the brushes) use that on the Fifty. Those are 4 pole & will spin the snot out of the motor.

Regardless of which motor you use, the motor must be in good condition. The motor should be broken down, cleaned with solvent, and inspected. The commutator on the armature must be clean and undamaged. Inspect the bronze bushings foe wear. These must be replaced if worn - otherwise the armature may be dragged into the field magnets. The brushes must be clean & have enough meat remaining to give adequate pressure on the commutator. Lube it with 90wt gear oil - sparingly. Grease the reduction gears and shafts with wheel bearing grease. Do not grease the Helix for the driven gear. Be sure it's clean & use a drop or two of 90wt. Be sure to oil the top bushing of the jack-shaft (The nut that sits on the very top of the gear drive)

Check that the bronze bushing for the intermediate gear is in good shape & greased. This bushing is installed in the engine bracket that is cast into the block. This is often overlooked.

Cal, thanks for the help. That solenoid was the one in the starter/junction box. It's also the one that got wet with the brackish water in August, from putt putting backward when the shift coupler gave out again. You may have read the story when I posted it The starter does start when jumped from the battery side to the starter side. Solenoid does not "click" when the issue happens. Nothing happens at all.

Bruce,
Thanks good info. Looked at the starter on the Fatty and sure enough it's the short one. i looked at the one on the '61 75hp and it's longer by about an inch but it has the steel back plate as well as the short one on the Fatty. I'm assuming it will still be a little better since the armature and windings are a little longer, so maybe a little more umph. It looks like I do have the 4 pole aluminum backed one on the '67 80hp but hate to use that one if I'm going to put that motor on the CLipper after cleaning/painting it up. Of course I can always swap them when it's time I guess.

Will the longer 2 pole work ok? The brush on the windings is very short so I may have to see if NAPA has replacement ones so I can solder them on.

Bob

Yes the longer Autolite one will work. Before you pull the starter off & swap it, try replacing the starter relay with one that is certified to be a sealed marine part. Install it & try it out. Dou you have a 12 volt test light? The crappy little ones that look like an ice pick are great. Everyone should have one of these. Put it on the boat & leave it there. If the problem comes up again, break out the tools, take the junction box cover off & test the relay. You will need someone to turn the ignition key to the start position & hold it there while you test for voltage. Connect the test lead clip to the small lug on the front of the relay that goes to the ignition switch. Touch the probe tip to the ground of the junction box. The lamp in the handle should light up when the key is in the "start" position.

The one that I opened was a Sierra and looks exactly like the new Evinrude one I just put on. It also has the same problem now. I've gotten one of the testor, now have a little red led on them, at least the one I got. I'll see if I can get it out this weekend or at least run it in the barrel and see if I can duplicate it.


Bob

So I put the original short starter back on and took her out again today to try and troubleshoot and wouldn't ya know it, NEVER ACTED UP!?!?!?!?? Drove a round for an hour and a half, stopped at our favorite watering hole for some food and a beer, started right up! Crazy Gremlins I guess!

Bob

There must have been a mechanic in the saloon. Why else would it not act up when you wanted it to.

It was the beer that did it. Now don't touch anything. Just leave it as it is and you will be able to enjoy it for the rest of the season. Have a couple of more beers and you will never know anything was wrong with it. Skip.

Thanks, LMAO!

Bob