TOPIC: '67 80 hp died again "Update"

Any electrical part has the potential to fail at any give time. You just never know how it was treated in the past or how long it might take for a factory defect to show itself. After all, it's only 48 years old, they just don't make 'em like they used to!!!

If it's ever been apart, the previous mechanic may not have properly routed the wires, you never know.

On the wire colors, this is how I remember: Green is Go, Blue is Back. For power trim/tilt, Green is the color of the grass, Blue is the color of the sky. You figure out which way the motor tilts!

You'll need to pull the lower unit, split the upper & lower gearcases apart, then disconnect the shift cable wires from the solenoid wires.

Then you'll be able to independently test the Fwd solenoid and also the shift wire for shorts.

Or, maybe you'll get lucky and find a pinched wire when you pull the lower unit. A nick in the wire could be fixed with some Liquid Electrical Tape such as this Attwood stuff sold by Wally's and others:

www.walmart.com/ip/Attwood-4-oz-Liquid-Electrical-Tape-Black/16351039

I would cover that repair area with some heat shrink tubing, for a bit of extra protection.

As long as it's below the "nub" where the shift cable goes thru the mid-section, you won't have any issues with the repair interfering with cable entry.

Be sure to check the shift cable where it runs around the water pump in cable clamps, there are several "pinch points" and it's certainly possible for the wire to have a small break in the insulation, enough to short to ground.

The electromagnetic shift coils themselves have very stout wiring insulation, but that insulation could be breached as well.

'Lectric Tape and a bit of heat shrink would fix that kind of problem.

Or you could slip a hunk of oil-resistant non-shrink tubing over the bad area. Weed-Wacker fuel line or similar would be small enough for that repair.

Anyway, hope that helps & Good Luck with the repairs.......ed

BTW, this is about the best liquid electrical tape you can buy:



It ain't cheap, but years ago when I was working in a naval shipyard, this is what we'd use to seal mast antenna connections. You'd wrap a layer of stretchy rubber tape (Bi-Seal is what we used), followed by a layer of electric tape, and a generous brushing of ScotchKote. The stuff stuck to everything like crazy.

After months or years at sea, you'd cut the tape/rubber seal off and the connectors were like new and dry as a bone.

Roger that thanks Ed. I'll pull the lower unit tomorrow and see what I have. I do have the lower unit from the 75hp but the housing is trash ass the previous owner used JBWeld to repair a crack in it. however the coils check ok, well they both read 8.5 ohms so I'm assuming that's still ok. They're available anyway if I need them. Anything special or gaskets I need before I pull it apart?

Bob

Waterwings wrote:

Anything special or gaskets I need before I pull it apart?Bob

There's an O-ring between the upper and lower gearcase halves and that should be replaced when you reassemble.

I've used Permatex No. 3 Aviation-Type gasket dressing on that joint before, you might find that the O-ring stays in place better if you use one of the more adhesive sealers such as the OMC Sealer 1000, "Sealer M", 3M "Type 847", or whatever they call it nowadays.

Or just glue the O-ring in place with rubber contact cement and seal the joint with Permatex No. 3, etc. It's just easier to not have to fight the O-ring while you're trying to fight the wires, thrust bearing, and pinion gear roller bearings when assembling.

You might consider replacing your driveshaft seal if not already renewed.

If the propshaft seal isn't leaking, you might consider leaving it alone. List price is almost $53!

The bearing carrier O-ring is more reasonably priced at under $9 and would be a good candidate for replacement. Use some sealer around the O-ring as well as the gearcase halves.


See below diagram, it may not be your particular model, but the light-duty electric gear shift L/U's are pretty much all the same:

www.marineengine.com/parts/johnson-evinrude-parts.php?year=1967&hp=80&model=V4A-19&manufacturer=Johnson§ion=Gearcase+Group

G'luck with the repair..........ed

Thanks Ed. Well I pulled the outer exhaust housing and found a frayed wire for the forward gear. Tested it thinking I could have gotten lucky! Nope of course not! Had to drop the lower unit. Drained the gear oil and it was light gray, of course let's add that to the mix!

Just to add insult to injury as I was lowering the bottom end the shift cable decided to get stuck and snap right in half! Of course it went where it was frayed, no surprise there. Now the problem is Marineengine wants $200 for a new one!!!!!! Anyone ever fabricate their own using the terminal kit 0379645? If so what wire did you use?

I do have the cable form the 75 that I haven't dug into yet. It may be good. I know the outer wire sleeve on it isn't good. The previous owner used a bunch of silicone around the base of it so it wouldn't leak in the lower case. I'll have to break it down and see how it is if I can't fabricate a new one.


P.S. on a side note what are the 70's 85 hp like? There's a guy in Annapolis that may have one that's suppose to be in good running order, of course that's what he claims.

Bob

Wow Bob, I can't believe all the trouble you're having with the 80!! Wished I was closer,I'd come over and help what I could. Can you use shrink tubing and add some new wires to what you have ? jim

Man! that sounds like fun!! It may be possible to rebuild your cable, but instead of those funky connectors, which would be pretty hard to make waterproof, I'd recommend using uninsulated solderless (crimp-type) connectors, then soldering them after crimping the wire, for best connection.

Then sleeve each wire with heat shrink; a wrap of Bi-seal rubber tape or electric tape over the entire repair area; a brush-on of ScotchKote, then cover that whole mess with a larger, longer heat shrink tube. ScotchKote the outside of that as well.

If water gets in the cable after doing all that, well you just may as well hang it up!

It'd be easier to find a "scrapper" engine on Craigslist that still had its electric shift cable intact. The cable alone is worth more than the entire engine, in many cases.

If that 85hp V4 is a manual-shift model, it's a pretty good motor. Providing, of course, compression is good, and the L/U oil is clean.

Be aware that early 70's 85 hp engines did have a "hydroelectric" lower unit that still had an electric shift cable, so you might not get along too well with another one of those. They don't seem to like you much!!

The hydroelectric L/U is a better design, but they are susceptible to contaminated oil, which will plug the screen of the little pump that provides pressure to force the shift clutch to neutral or reverse. If the oil on one of those is clean, that's a good thing.

Unlike the older spring-driven electric shift lower units, if something fails inside the gearbox the L/U will be stuck in Fwd gear and you can get home.

If a Fwd gear spring breaks on the old type, you're backing all the way down the bay to the boat ramp! Already had that experience 50 years ago. It was fun at the time for me, probably not so much for my Dad!

Cheers.....ed

Jim, thanks I appreciate that.

Ed, well the repair sounds good but alas it didn't break evenly, it actually split the insulation on one side when it gave way! I'd have to try and repair a 4" piece of wire, and it actually doesn't look real good inside. Well not to my liking anyway. I am going to take a look at the wire in the 75hp and make sure it's good to go.

I do have access to the polyester coated tinned wire here at work, not quite as pliable but strong as heck and resistant to just about everything. Any thoughts on using this for making a new cable, with a shrink tube sleeve?

Bob

Hey Bob, how's it going???? Did you ever hear of a guy named Job?

If it ain't one thing it's another, I perfected that saying.

If you're trying to make the motor "correct" with the wiring then I don't think it's gunna happen. That old OMC rubber insulated wire is flexible but rots like red oak. May look good but if it starts to split or crack the damage will follow up the entire stretch. What I have done in the past is just replace the whole length. Get reasonably close to the bottom as you can and splice like ed says (me thinks it's a little overkill but probably good security) and run your new fuel/heat resistant wires up the pike. Leave them plenty long, you can trim 'em shorter once it's put together. On the lower end where spliced put heat shrink on the entire remaining old stuff also to act as new insulation. On the motor end put on some new type connectors, deep six those old knife things.

Cal, LOL yeah I'm beginning to feel that way! I guess that's my new call sign!

I have to go all the way down and investigate the wire, right to the coil since as of right now it shows the coil being shorted so I don't know if that's the cable down in the lower case or the coil itself. I do have the other lower unit and the coils on there read 8.5 ohms and not shorted. I'll probably just make a new cable all the way form the coils to the motor then. I have access to polyester coated tinned wire here at work and I can even make one of them green!

I may have to stick with the knife connectors at the coils though, don't know if I really want to hassle with changing them out. My luck I'll break the damn ends off the coils or something!

Bob (Job)

Bob, I wouldn't worry about having the knife connectors at the very end, since they're inside the L/U, bathed in insulating oil, and would be covered by the rubber 'booties" (or whatever sleeving you end up covering with).

The main concern is keeping seawater out of the cable.

The cable sounds so bad that you really don't have anything to lose by building a new one.

Bob, I spotted this on da bay. Thought it might save you some headaches. A little pricey, but what aint anymore.

Cal the ends came today, thanks buddy.

Ed, roger that, I think I'm going to go that route, new cable and new ends. Thanks again for all the help and the 70's info. I may just give the guy a call and see what he wants for the 85hp and if it's electric shift or not.

Jim, thanks yep a little pricey. Cost more than I paid for both the 75hp and 80hp! lol

Well I got the prop off and put the lower unit up in the vice so I could start removing stuff. Bot the pump housing off and impellor. Looks like I need to get another one, has a slight set in it and it looks like there's a small chunk off one of the upper tips, about a 1/16" at best but who know where that ended up!!!!

Got to the drive shaft cover and started to remove the bolts and guess what, my luck strikes again!

Needless to say I stopped , got out the propane torch and started heating the lower pump area where the threads are. Well as bet I could anyway. Shot it with some PB Blaster and going to let it sit overnight, because if I don't I know I'll break the rest of them!

By the way, does that shaft look too scored up from the pump?

Bob

Geeze Bob, (Job) Murphy's law is an albatross that's haunting you.
I have a lower unit, standard shift (non elec) with all the linkages and upper levers you are welcome to. No charge and No leaks either. Shipping is a cost though. 'cept for a chunk out of one of the fins that I have the piece for. It's from a '62 Rude 75hp. Has anyone done a complete conversion?? Maybe someone here can verify if it would fit. Call it plan "Z".

Cal yeah apparently I'm best friends with Murphy right now! Thanks fir the offer, I'll keep that as plan Z. I would still need all the upper end shift rods etc. I can probably use the Fat Fifty's controls.

Bob

Hey bob - just get a MERCURY! LoL -

You really need to find a good used rotor as a backup. As for the rotor having internal shorting Look at it like this. Think of an Avocado that looks really pretty on the outside. Cut it open to see it all ugly and dark brown. Beauty is only skin deep. The internal bakelite plastic can carbonize on the inside and cause an invisible pathway to ground. There actually doesn't need to be a direct connection to ground. It doesn't have to be burned all the way through - as the electrical energy just needs to be close enough to the metal to "jump" through the plastic to the metal shaft. "presto" all your spark it dumped to ground. You will not be able to see it if it is happening. The best way to eliminate the possible problem is to try a different (known to be good ) part.

As for the conversion to manual shift - That is a major deal. Easier to get a different engine. The internal motor tower is different, need linkages and bell crank, shift levers, motor adapter plate and shift cams, Shift cam detent spring, different motor pan, shift arm, different control box - Forget about it.

Thanks Bruce, I'll keep chugging away on this lower unit for now, but it looks like 4 easy outs in my future I think!

I have toyed with the idea of just dropping the power head on the '59 fat Fifty, of course then that would mean drilling the original holes back out of the transom and filling the 4 new ones I made for this motor! Yeah I would have to mess with the lower cowling also for the main cable.

Bob

Wow this thread is almost as long as my Resorter project thread. LOL

Anyway, just some update pics.
Here's the reason I can't just use the 75hp lower unit.


Well I did finally get the other three bolts out with no incident and the lower is apart.

Found metal shavings on the drive shaft tip but it looked ok. Here's what I found on the coil wire retainer.

Yep those are shavings so not sure where they're coming from yet.
Gee I think this is the culprit for the forward shorting problem.

Slowly pulled it as I was trying to get it apart from the retainer and it came right out! You can see where it's frayed half way and it grounded to the case. Don't know how the hell I even had forward! Obviously it got away from the retainer and the shaft rubbed it. I'm hoping the coil is still good and I just need to reconnect the wire. I may just not bother with the 75hp wire and make a new one that's much stronger using this stuff.

Shielded twisted pair 14 gauge, tinned Polyester coated, aircraft grade. Shouldn't have any problems with this stuff, other than it's a little stiffer than the original. I can reuse the old color sleeves and I think I'll be good to go.

Now I just have to pull the lower apart and be careful not to take my eye out with the retaining clip! lol. I will wear a face shield just in case. The manual pages I found call for a removal tool for the forward coil but you can heat the house for a while and get it to knock loose with a board smacked on the side of the housing. Is this true? What have you guys used to get it out?

Bob

Bob, I spied this electric-shift lower unit for $50 in the Seattle Craigslist:

seattle.craigslist.org/skc/bpo/5161258818.html

Looks like it's a dlr, they may be willing to ship. Couldn't hurt to give 'em a holler to see if they still have it. It looks pretty clean and is likely a freshwater unit.

On the removal of the Fwd coil, I don't recall it being a press-fit, but if you find that's true, heating will expand the gearcase as the manual's "useful tip" said, then it should work to give it a good smack to jar it loose.

Pretty much the same thing you might do with a fwd gear bearing race, pressed into the front of the gearcase....ed

Cool thanks Ed. I've already ordered all the seals and O rings, as well as the impellor repair kit. Might be good to have a spare around though. Shipping probably won't be pretty though.

Looks like I'll have to put in a helicoil since the broken bolt didn't want to come out nicely, gee go figure. I also have to get a large set of snap ring pliers since the little ones I have won't get lower unit snap ring out.

Bob

Well I was able to get it all apart and found this as I removed the forward gear.

Apparently that gear has been tumbling around in there for a while!
Got the coil housing out after heating the case as manual directed.

Actually checked good now but doesn't look like it will last long. So I decided to take the 75hp lower apart. Well attempt it anyway. Things were going to well for the day so apparently I needed more excitement and did this with the mallet, full swing at the lower unit!
Yep damn finger got in the way. You can't see it real well (sorry) but it's about the size of my thumb, nice one hugh.

Well put it on ice for about 15 minutes and went back at it. Unfortunately it still didn't want to pull apart so I hit it with the torch and PB Blaster and le tit sit overnight. We'll see if it worked in a few minutes.

Hey the manual calls for not reusing the nuts for the upper/lower unit. I see they're just nylon locknuts more or less. Can you just use the stainless style and not have to pay $10.99 per nut?

Bob

Bob,I reuse the nuts on my bolts. I just take a hammer and tap the top of the nut to squeeze out the plastic nylock very very slightly. I haven't ever had a problem doing this. Better use a pair of needle nose pliers so you don't mash that finger again I've done that way more times than I want to remember.

Bob, I did not have to see that this early in the morning, the finger that is.
This week I'm in upper, upper, upper, MN. at the sister-in law's, so far up I say "eh" after every sentence. internet speed...well my coffee gets cold and an inch of whiskers grow while waiting for a connection.
Glad to see some progress. If AlGore is correct you should have another 20000 months of warm weather to complete everything and get on the water

Thanks Jim, that's what I'll do then.

Cal, sorry didn't mean to interrupt your coffee. Enjoy the Great White North Eh, Hoser!

So I got the other lower apart finally, and yep a little water in there at some point so there was some rust keep it from just popping apart, among other things. The forward gear and spring look good but the spindle had some rust in the grooves so I rebuilt mine using the gear and clutch springs and the good spindle.

Took most of the day to get the forwards coil housing out. Had to heat the crap out of it, spray PB Blaster and let it sit. Then heat it again, smack the outside with the mallet, not my finger this time. Still had to bang the housing down on a block of wood making sure to smack the opening evenly, many, many, many times. It did come out though and no worse for ware.

The reason the other coil shorted is because the wire and plastic sleeve came out of the groove in the bottom. the screw and washer that hold it half way came out and then it came out form under the steel protector. I'll take pictures once it's back in so you can see what it should look like.

I have to figure a way to get the coils housing back in though. I'll probably have to heat the housing up again and I'm thinking of using a 2 3/4" washer, with a notch for the wire, across the coil housing and using a 1 5/6" 1/2" drive socket with an extension on it and driving it back in that way. not sure how else to do it since I don't have a press or the installation tool they recommend. Have to keep even pressure across that thing so it goes in even.

Bob

Bob,

I'm thinking the hot ticket would be to get a "100" electric shift lower unit. Those old things could handle up to 300 horses and they are actually a much more efficient design. They swing a much larger propeller and are geared differently to better use the motor power curve. You would need to remove the extension from your motor tower, and just install the 100 HP lower unit. The pump tubes (I believe)are nearly the same and the wiring is the same. The flange bolt pattern is the same, and the driveshaft splines are the same. The water pump tubes would be the trickiest part - and those aren't difficult to find. Probably a distraction to bring this up - but it might be something to consider.

Bruce, sure now you tell me!!! LOL Well I'm pretty much committed to this lower now that I've ordered all the o rings and seals. I'll definitely keep that in mind if, god forbid, it happens again.

Did some more work when I got home but it is Monday soooo...... Got a dock 3/4" inner odgee washer that's 2 3/4" outside diameter so I can bang on it to seat the coil housing. Did and old car rebuilder trick and put the coil in the freezer to "shrink " it while I heated the housing. Was going in great until I remembered I didn't put the damn conical bearing back in first!!!!!!!!!!!! Only taped it twice but now it doesn't want to come back out. Doesn't have the bearing to help tap it from behind when smacking it on a board after heating the case. I hate Monday's!!!!!!!!!! I decided to stop for the day and hit it tomorrow.

Bob

Rainy days and Mondays...Monday, Monday, Garfield hates Mondays also.
Bob, believe it or not I said a prayer for you.
The best advice in the world you're getting, eh?
Keep pluggin' away.

SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Cal it worked!!! I was able to get the coil back out finally. Made a make shift puller and it popped right out. Got the gear back in and the coil. Here's a picture of what the forward coil wire should look like.
[img] [img]http://www.fiberglassics.com/media/kunena/attachments/legacy/images/wire_holder.jpg
Yep if you don't have that washer and screw in there the wires is going to get into the gears and your done!

The lower is pretty much back together now, just waiting on the seals and "o" rings. A couple of the rings are on back order I guess.


The rest should be a piece of...oh crap don't say it Bob, don't jinx it!!!!!

ThankS for everyone's help so far you've been awesome!!! Stay tuned.

Bob

Well????

Funny you should ask. MOST of the stuff showed up, unfortunately the damn O ring I need for the prop shaft cover didn't make it, it's on back order!!!!!!! I think I may be able to match it at the local hardware store, I have to check tomorrow. I was able to get it all back together except for that prop shaft cover. Was a heck of a time getting the 1/4" id fuel hose into the housing where the old wire cable went. Had to shave it some, freeze it then soap up the end to get it into the housing but that sucker isn't coming out or going to leak!

I was able to fish the two wire cable through it then seal it up with seal all. It's just waiting for the cover and some oil and away we go!!!!!!!

Bob

Looks good Bob - nice job! Any bearing supply house will likely have an O ring for the bearing head. I would see if you can get a Silicone or Viton O ring. One from a hardware store may be what I call "mystery rubber"- by that, I mean that a lot of 'O' rings sold will not handle solvents and oils. Some 'Neoprene' rings will swell or rot in just a few months time.

Thanks Bruce, turns out the True Value near me has Viton rings but didn't have the 2 5/8" ID o ring that goes on that cover. plus the one I had on order has been pushed off twice now so I called the local Eevinrude dealer and he can get it to me in a few days so I cancelled the other one. He isn't the cheapest that's why I ordered the bulk on line but I'm tired of waiting, plus one O ring isn't that much.

Stay tuned.

Bob

Well hosed again, apparently the dang O ring is on back order now and it's that way across the US. Manufacturer is backed up.

Bob

is this the o-ring your looking for ?
number #57..
www.marineengine.com/parts/johnson-evinrude-parts.php?year=1967&hp=80&model=V4AL-19&manufacturer=Johnson§ion=Gearcase+Group

Geesh Bob, I'll take a run this evening with my camera and put it on the thread just to jog your memory. These old motors can be a pita to keep running but compared to the price of a new one they're still cheap. At least it looks like you're coming to the end of the great adventure.

Bob,I admire your determination. If mine ever aggrevates me like that, I'll unbolt it at the lake and get someone to tow me in LOL.

Vintagerunner yes that's it but Marineengine.coms are a back order also. I don't always trust ebay these days. The one I have on order should be here soon but thanks.

Cal, yeah your right. When the Admiral asked how much is a new dependable one, I laughed and said many thousands, she said, oh ok fix that one then. lol

Jim, too funny!!!!!!!

Bob

Well the O ring came in today but I couldn't get to the motor tonight, hopefully tomorrow!

Bob

It's alive again!!!!!!!!!!! Back on the water!


That was at half throttle. Still only getting 27mph at full throttle, thought I'd get more with the 60hp. Well the Fat Fifty was only getting 23/24. Boat's 1040 lbs, without the motor, oh well, I'll make it up on the Resorter with the 350.

Of it wouldn't be me if there wasn't some darn drama while out today. Burned off two tanks of old gas and started sputtering so shifted over to the third but not quite quick enough and it died. no biggies just pump, restart and go right? Wrong, no restart, pull the cover and see the damn fuel pump bowl loose!!! Ok so tighten it up and pump the bulb and what do I get, gas squirting out the top of the glass bowl!!!! Crap, pull it off and lo and behold the stupid gasket has split and do I have a spare in the tool box? Of course not, everything else but! So I put it back together as best I could, get it to start and have the Admiral sit and pump the bulb every time the fuel bowl gets low. Limped it back to the dock and went home.

At least I did get a couple of hours of water time though. Got home replaced the gasket and put a spare in the tool box. Flushed the motor and ready for tomorrow!! Now to get some more gas.

Bob

ATTA BOY BOB!!! you did it. Never say never. 27 is about all I get on my 17' shell lake also. The resorter I'm going to guess will do low 50's. The old Sabre did 48 and that was a heavy boat with the AMC 225.
Ya shudda cut out a gasket from the admiral's shoe, she wouldn't mind? At least you didn't get towed.